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	<title>Comments on: Claw/Claw/Bite</title>
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	<link>http://www.lordkilgore.com/clawclawbite</link>
	<description>Last seen entering the Lost Caverns some years ago. . .</description>
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		<title>By: Kilgore</title>
		<link>http://www.lordkilgore.com/clawclawbite/comment-page-1#comment-619</link>
		<dc:creator>Kilgore</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Jul 2009 19:04:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.lordkilgore.com/?p=1117#comment-619</guid>
		<description>Regarding your 3rd thought, I actually think that combining all attacks into one makes it &quot;easier&quot; to describe various sorts of attacks depending upon the particular situation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Regarding your 3rd thought, I actually think that combining all attacks into one makes it &#8220;easier&#8221; to describe various sorts of attacks depending upon the particular situation.</p>
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		<title>By: Kilgore</title>
		<link>http://www.lordkilgore.com/clawclawbite/comment-page-1#comment-618</link>
		<dc:creator>Kilgore</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Jul 2009 18:59:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.lordkilgore.com/?p=1117#comment-618</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ve run a spreadsheet simulation of thousands of mountain lion attacks [against AC 5] and found that the &quot;one attack for 2d6 damage&quot; method scores about 0.25 points of damage per round less than the standard claw/claw/bite method. So every four rounds the mountain lion does one less damage total, which I don&#039;t think is significant.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve run a spreadsheet simulation of thousands of mountain lion attacks [against AC 5] and found that the &#8220;one attack for 2d6 damage&#8221; method scores about 0.25 points of damage per round less than the standard claw/claw/bite method. So every four rounds the mountain lion does one less damage total, which I don&#8217;t think is significant.</p>
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		<title>By: Kilgore</title>
		<link>http://www.lordkilgore.com/clawclawbite/comment-page-1#comment-617</link>
		<dc:creator>Kilgore</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Jul 2009 18:57:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.lordkilgore.com/?p=1117#comment-617</guid>
		<description>That is an interesting way to do it. How would you determine the target &#039;to-hit&#039; number, unless all PCs had the same armor class?

One thing I&#039;m trying to get away from is &quot;sending lesser die hits to weaker PCs if I need to&quot; these days, though. I want to remove that sort of judgment call and just let things happen as they may.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That is an interesting way to do it. How would you determine the target &#8216;to-hit&#8217; number, unless all PCs had the same armor class?</p>
<p>One thing I&#8217;m trying to get away from is &#8220;sending lesser die hits to weaker PCs if I need to&#8221; these days, though. I want to remove that sort of judgment call and just let things happen as they may.</p>
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		<title>By: Claw/Claw/Bite (Pt. 2) &#171; Lord Kilgore</title>
		<link>http://www.lordkilgore.com/clawclawbite/comment-page-1#comment-611</link>
		<dc:creator>Claw/Claw/Bite (Pt. 2) &#171; Lord Kilgore</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Jul 2009 16:37:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.lordkilgore.com/?p=1117#comment-611</guid>
		<description>[...] Claw/Claw/Bite (Pt. 2) [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Claw/Claw/Bite (Pt. 2) [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Timeshadows</title>
		<link>http://www.lordkilgore.com/clawclawbite/comment-page-1#comment-601</link>
		<dc:creator>Timeshadows</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 11 Jul 2009 07:57:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.lordkilgore.com/?p=1117#comment-601</guid>
		<description>No, I&#039;m wrong: 3d4 is the way to go. (3&#124; 7.5&#124; 12)
--Sorry.  :(</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No, I&#8217;m wrong: 3d4 is the way to go. (3| 7.5| 12)<br />
&#8211;Sorry.  <img src='http://www.lordkilgore.com/wordpress/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_sad.gif' alt=':(' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Timeshadows</title>
		<link>http://www.lordkilgore.com/clawclawbite/comment-page-1#comment-600</link>
		<dc:creator>Timeshadows</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 11 Jul 2009 07:55:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.lordkilgore.com/?p=1117#comment-600</guid>
		<description>* In your above example, the closest I can see is: 1d6+1d4+1 which accurately duplicates the minima, and average, and only cheats you of 1 maxima.

As far as the probabilities on rolling three attacks in one, the others have already weighed-in.  It does dramatically reduce the &#039;chance&#039; that any damage is done, but if that time-saver step is worth it for you and your group, cool.

Trivia-
:: As for 10 (or my preferred 6-second Round), an adult human can cross 21 feet in under 6-seconds and become a deadly threat, so multiple swings more or less right in someone&#039;s face (especially by an ambidextrous creature like a cougar) is no stretch of the imagination.
:: Moreover, cougars would almost never attack up-front, instead &#039;sneak attacking&#039; and then running off if they were presented with any serious resistance, and then follow the prey until they could ambush again.  :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>* In your above example, the closest I can see is: 1d6+1d4+1 which accurately duplicates the minima, and average, and only cheats you of 1 maxima.</p>
<p>As far as the probabilities on rolling three attacks in one, the others have already weighed-in.  It does dramatically reduce the &#8216;chance&#8217; that any damage is done, but if that time-saver step is worth it for you and your group, cool.</p>
<p>Trivia-<br />
:: As for 10 (or my preferred 6-second Round), an adult human can cross 21 feet in under 6-seconds and become a deadly threat, so multiple swings more or less right in someone&#8217;s face (especially by an ambidextrous creature like a cougar) is no stretch of the imagination.<br />
:: Moreover, cougars would almost never attack up-front, instead &#8216;sneak attacking&#8217; and then running off if they were presented with any serious resistance, and then follow the prey until they could ambush again.  <img src='http://www.lordkilgore.com/wordpress/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Vincent Diakuw</title>
		<link>http://www.lordkilgore.com/clawclawbite/comment-page-1#comment-599</link>
		<dc:creator>Vincent Diakuw</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 11 Jul 2009 00:51:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.lordkilgore.com/?p=1117#comment-599</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m probably alone in this, but I roll a single d20 for any monster and all the attacks either hit or miss... then I distribute the damage dice amongst the party as the creature attacks suggest. This deals damage similarly to rationalizing the damage to a single large attack as you suggest, but allows the multiple attack to fulfill its purpose in challenging groups.

Also, when the claw/claw/bite hits I can send the lesser die hits to the weaker PCs if I need to ;)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m probably alone in this, but I roll a single d20 for any monster and all the attacks either hit or miss&#8230; then I distribute the damage dice amongst the party as the creature attacks suggest. This deals damage similarly to rationalizing the damage to a single large attack as you suggest, but allows the multiple attack to fulfill its purpose in challenging groups.</p>
<p>Also, when the claw/claw/bite hits I can send the lesser die hits to the weaker PCs if I need to <img src='http://www.lordkilgore.com/wordpress/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: JB</title>
		<link>http://www.lordkilgore.com/clawclawbite/comment-page-1#comment-598</link>
		<dc:creator>JB</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Jul 2009 20:23:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.lordkilgore.com/?p=1117#comment-598</guid>
		<description>Hmmm...cross-post with Chris B.  Yeah, what he said.

(though personally you&#039;d be amazed at how fast the well-trained hand at feet move when fencing...multiple feints, parries, ducks, and thrusts are all possible within 3-5 seconds, let alone 10!)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hmmm&#8230;cross-post with Chris B.  Yeah, what he said.</p>
<p>(though personally you&#8217;d be amazed at how fast the well-trained hand at feet move when fencing&#8230;multiple feints, parries, ducks, and thrusts are all possible within 3-5 seconds, let alone 10!)</p>
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		<title>By: JB</title>
		<link>http://www.lordkilgore.com/clawclawbite/comment-page-1#comment-597</link>
		<dc:creator>JB</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Jul 2009 20:20:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.lordkilgore.com/?p=1117#comment-597</guid>
		<description>Hmmm…I have three distinct thoughts on your idea:

First and foremost, over the long haul, I’d expect combining damage into one roll to be deadlier to PCs.  When damage is split amongst multiple rolls, odds are the PC will take LESS damage.  For example: if the mountain lion has a 40% chance to hit (13+ on a 1D20) your one roll method gives a character a 40% chance to take full damage.  With the claw/claw/bite the chance of taking full damage is 40% x 40% x 40% = 6.5%.  Sure there’s less chance of taking NO damage, but at least you’re not going “all in” every hand!

Second thought: I think that for a claw/claw/bite attack, a creature is probably making multiple swipes and tears…with EACH natural weapon! A player only has one sword to hack away with…an owl bear has two deadly claws and one pecking beak.  Now I realize that isn’t consistent with the way I handle two weapon fighting for PCs in B/X…  : )

Third thought: Do all animals (like mountain lions) claw/claw/bite?  I don’t think so. I’d think they do one “pounce” or maybe one “swipe” (or “swipe combo”).  I’m just guessing here…I’ve never been attacked by a mountain lion.  However, you COULD re-write every monster entry to make sense to YOUR particular game world.  But that might be a pretty hefty project.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hmmm…I have three distinct thoughts on your idea:</p>
<p>First and foremost, over the long haul, I’d expect combining damage into one roll to be deadlier to PCs.  When damage is split amongst multiple rolls, odds are the PC will take LESS damage.  For example: if the mountain lion has a 40% chance to hit (13+ on a 1D20) your one roll method gives a character a 40% chance to take full damage.  With the claw/claw/bite the chance of taking full damage is 40% x 40% x 40% = 6.5%.  Sure there’s less chance of taking NO damage, but at least you’re not going “all in” every hand!</p>
<p>Second thought: I think that for a claw/claw/bite attack, a creature is probably making multiple swipes and tears…with EACH natural weapon! A player only has one sword to hack away with…an owl bear has two deadly claws and one pecking beak.  Now I realize that isn’t consistent with the way I handle two weapon fighting for PCs in B/X…  : )</p>
<p>Third thought: Do all animals (like mountain lions) claw/claw/bite?  I don’t think so. I’d think they do one “pounce” or maybe one “swipe” (or “swipe combo”).  I’m just guessing here…I’ve never been attacked by a mountain lion.  However, you COULD re-write every monster entry to make sense to YOUR particular game world.  But that might be a pretty hefty project.</p>
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		<title>By: Christopher B</title>
		<link>http://www.lordkilgore.com/clawclawbite/comment-page-1#comment-596</link>
		<dc:creator>Christopher B</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Jul 2009 18:57:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.lordkilgore.com/?p=1117#comment-596</guid>
		<description>I can&#039;t say as I&#039;ve ever had an issue with the claw/claw/bite routine. (Since my weapon of choice is D&amp;D B/X, wherein rounds are only 10 seconds long, I&#039;ve never been a believer in the &quot;multiple swings, feints, parries, and counterstrokes&quot; theory of combat; nor do I cleave to the idea that HP represent anything more than physical wear and tear. Keeps things simple. That&#039;s just me, though...)

I&#039;m no statistician (scared o&#039; that!), but: While it looks like your conversion of 1d3/1d3/1d6 to 2d6 is fairly close in regards to averaging damage rolls, converting three to-hit rolls to one really skews the odds. As an example, the odds of a all three c/c/b attacks hitting on a 15 or higher is somewhere around 3%, whereas a single attack against that target number is at ~30% odds. (FYI: I have a die rolling app I use to run these sorts of numbers - I didn&#039;t do the math myself.) Thus, if the numbers are right, by reducing all three attacks to a single to-hit roll, you&#039;re opening your players&#039; characters up to suffering higher average damage amounts each round.

FWIW, ICBWOT (&quot;I could be wrong on this&quot; :P)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I can&#8217;t say as I&#8217;ve ever had an issue with the claw/claw/bite routine. (Since my weapon of choice is D&amp;D B/X, wherein rounds are only 10 seconds long, I&#8217;ve never been a believer in the &#8220;multiple swings, feints, parries, and counterstrokes&#8221; theory of combat; nor do I cleave to the idea that HP represent anything more than physical wear and tear. Keeps things simple. That&#8217;s just me, though&#8230;)</p>
<p>I&#8217;m no statistician (scared o&#8217; that!), but: While it looks like your conversion of 1d3/1d3/1d6 to 2d6 is fairly close in regards to averaging damage rolls, converting three to-hit rolls to one really skews the odds. As an example, the odds of a all three c/c/b attacks hitting on a 15 or higher is somewhere around 3%, whereas a single attack against that target number is at ~30% odds. (FYI: I have a die rolling app I use to run these sorts of numbers &#8211; I didn&#8217;t do the math myself.) Thus, if the numbers are right, by reducing all three attacks to a single to-hit roll, you&#8217;re opening your players&#8217; characters up to suffering higher average damage amounts each round.</p>
<p>FWIW, ICBWOT (&#8220;I could be wrong on this&#8221; <img src='http://www.lordkilgore.com/wordpress/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_razz.gif' alt=':P' class='wp-smiley' /> )</p>
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